Are those liberals on that "stairway to Heaven" who have been turned away because they believe in puke-science and found out Heaven doesn't approve of immorality? Obviously, none are right-wingers because none are carrying guns. They must be liberals being turned away from Heaven. Good picture with much meaning.
Of course you wouldn't see it. Nobody is expecting you to. That's why this discussion has been between me and Eddie. We're trying to keep it honest, but you may as well post anyway.
LOL. Funny point about the Guns. Well played. (See: I can recognize good points, even if the speaker doesn't agree with me!)
But you're missing something: The ones in Black & Green carrying BIBLES. (See the Rosary Beads / Cross?) So, yeah, in a way, you're right, they are preaching "puke-science," though I wouldn't have used that exact term in writing. But unless you think LIBERALS are the bible-thumpers, I'm afaid that they are likley Conservatives.
(And DEFINITELEY Conservatives, when contrasted against the Boy in Red who's using a science book.)
I thought the insinuation was Bibles, but I didn't understand what the cords were (no I don't see the cross. I'll look closer when I'm on a better computer). But since they were walking the wrong way I figured they were those turned away at the gate. And saved Christians don't have to worry about that. Only the unsaved ones. Which are you?
The boy is using the science book as an umbrella. Perhaps he knows no other way to use that book ... or what it's for? BTW, there are many liberal "Bible thumpers". 'Liberal'/'conservative' doesn't determine between unsaved and saved. In my world, it's moral and immoral that makes that distinction and the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior, who died on the Cross and shed His blood to pay for our sins. ALL sins ... all you have to do is ask.
...And vote Republican, it would seem, from your previous posts.
Can I be "saved" and still support a Woman's Right to Choose and Equal Rigths for Gay,s I wonder? (How about teaching Evolution exclusively in Science Classrooms and supporting policies to address Global Warming? Waht about taxing the Rich to lower the Deficit? Can I be saved and still vote for all these things?)
Also... Why do I get the feeling that if I were still a Catholic in Good Standing with the Church, as I once was, a long time ago, this would matter naught to you? If I'm right about that, you can spare me there "personal relationship with Jesus" routine. I heard it both online and in person many times. But I collect "Chick Tracts" for amusment and irony, not salvation. I've heard it before, and even were I still a religious man, I would still reject that particular school of theological thought.
But now that you've some of those same buzz-words, you've got me curious... What/How you think/feel about Prosperity Theology?
You're asking ME a lot of questions that you need to ask GOD. But, considering you deny God already, it is doubtful that when He tells you what He wanted, you would ignore Him anyway. So, why would I even attempt to explain anything to you? It's not like you are asking in good faith. You just need some "gotcha" answers so you can whine about religion some more. Good luck with that.
See, here I am trying to have a nice conversation, showing genuine inetest in your opinion, and you revert back to being an insufferable prat. William was the same way. If you can't answer any questions at all about your faith, then why did you come here? Why do your witness routine if you can't even TALK about it?! You're dodging again. And that's seriously weak, dude. Its not my fault that it is so easy tofind inconsistencies in religion in general or your faith in particular. If you can't even discuss these basic matters then you make a pretty ineffective witness.Just sayin.
"See, here I am trying to have a nice conversation," ... you're kidding, right? With that series of questions you're telling me you wanted honest answers? What was it I said in the very post you replied to? "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK". Are you asking ME to be your savior? Or are you interested in how God saves you?
I'm interestred in better understanding your opinion, and you as a person by extension. I'm not asking you what I should believe but rather what you do, regarding those questions I posed. Serioisly: What is your belief / opinion on those matters?
My opinion is that many of the Levitican laws were aimed at a people who needed guidance at a time of great violence and debauchery. I don't believe the people, at that time, would be considered trying to become "born again Christians", which is what Jesus said we should be to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Being that takes great sacrifice and diligence. But by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ I am given an opportunity to be forgiven for my sins. The laws given during Leviticus were more specific to start a group of people onto the path of righteousness. The path I am to take is a bit different than then.
Well... That tells me a bit about where you come by your faith, how you see it and the role it plays it in your life. Which is all fine and good, but - all cynicism aside - I could pretty much infer from your posts. But I still remain interested in how you would personally answer the three question I posed above.
1) Do YOU believe that a person holding what YOU SEE as "liberal beliefs" (e.g.: pro-choice (assuming never had or performed an abortion themselves), pro-Gay rights (assuming not Gay themselves), etc...) can "accept Jesus Christ as their savior?" And if you do, do you believe that can still hold those views afterwards? (IOW: Do YOU believe a true Polotical Liberal can still be saved.)
2) Do you recognize any spiritual value, in terms of one's salvatuion, on a person being a Roman Catholic in good standing with the church? (Meaning they regularly attend mass, make use of the sacrement of Reconciliation, take the eucarist, generally try to live by the Church's teaching, and presumably are not a hypocrite.) Do you believe that person can reasonably make the same claim to salvation that you do?
3) What are your thoughts on Prosperity Theology?
There's no "gotcha" here. I just want to know what you think.
If we disagree? Big-whoop. Wouldn't be the first time.Won't be the last, I'm sure. And sure, I have opinions about all these things myself, but it falls more along the lines of something I have a curiosity, rather than a passion, about. So I really don't see getting into a verbal brawl over it.
1, No. I don't see how someone can be for abortion and yet claim salvation. I'm not making any judgement, here, that's my opinion. It's a little difficult to understand how someone can claim being a born again Christian and at the same time accept and/or promote the murder of viable human beings. How can you be living the life Jesus explains if you are in full acceptance of incorrect morality? (gay rights? ... personally, I have no problem with them getting any and all equality they seek. But .... "rights" I don't know.)
2, You know, the Bible states that few will make it to Heaven (my guess is maybe 10%). If you're asking me if I would pass judgement on someone else, I can't do that. However, I can say that each individual makes their own choices. When you die, you find out how well those choices worked out for you (assuming there is a God and Heaven ... which I do ;) If you read the Bible it states quite clearly that 'going to Church' 'belonging to this/that' ect ... isn't what get's you into Heaven. So based on the limited criteria you offered in your example, the guy would not be guaranteed an entrance through the Pearly Gates, but not necessarily excluded. You need to realize it's not 'doing things' that gets you into Heaven. But, yeah, they can make the same "claim", that I make about salvation, but I'm not the decider on the legitimacy of either of our claims.
3, I don't know what that is. I'll be glad to look it up for you, if you want, though. LOL
Thank you. While I’m sure we’ll continue to disagree politically, this gives me a much better understanding of you as a person, and your faith, than our previous discussions. (Which I still disagree with you on, BTW.) ;)
With regards to your first question… OK fair enough. Just two things… I do not support abortion as a practice, or think of it as a moral act. IMHO, there is never justification for abortion (except to save a life) even in cases of Rape. Now… That’s my MORAL OPINION. On the other hand, when looking at the question legally, I need (1) to find a legal principle (like the sanctity of human life) that can be applied in a consistent manner; (2) Without putting the Gov’t between a doctor and a patient, vis a vis a burden of proof for either a Rape or Health issues; and (3) without taking away a woman’s fundamental right to decide for herself IF she will have children, WHEN and WITH WHOM. I don’t really want to turn this into an abortion debate, and I DO plan on doing another write on abortion pretty soon, but that's just how I see it. MORAL and LEGAL are two different things. (Plus: First Amendment, etc…)
ALSO… what you said about “equality” versus “rights” (for Gays)? They’re the same thing, my friend. (Again, I don’t want to re-open a huge debate here, just fleshing out how I see it.)
The Second Question was just to feel out your anti-Catholic bias. In my experience, most “Born-Again” (also “Fundamentalist,” “Evangelical,” etc…) Christians have a general prejudice against the Catholic Church, and would have said that NO CATHOLIC will enter the Kingdom of God. I like your answer. (Well… I don’t like the ODDS you give! LOL) But I appreciate the consistency of it, regardless of how you may (or may not) judge me personally.
The Third Question… Meh, you don’t need to look it up. It’s a Gospel preached by Pat Robertson (and others) that speaks of God giving you rewards IN THIS LIFE, in the form of material wealth. If I believed in the same Divine (and presumably Diabolical) entities that you do, I would conclude, based on all I have read about it, that "Prosperity" was little more than SATANIC HERESY. It focuses on material wealth in this life, and basically says that whatever you do to attain that wealth MUST be OK, in Gods eyes, otherwise he wouldn’t have let you attain it. (So fraud, theft, etc… All OK, as long as it brings you great wealth.) But even without invoking the Devil, I see it as nothing more than a twisted interpretation of Religion, created by very rich, very evil men, to rationalize the great harms they’ve done in their pursuit of material wealth. (Pat Robertson and his Blood Diamond mine, for example.)
If you had revealed a hatred of Catholics, or embraced the Prosperity Gospel, I could have easily written you off as a simple kook. Instead I now have to actually DEAL with you, as a more complicated kook - an epithet that, coming from me, I’m sure you’ll wear as a badge of honor. LOL
Are those liberals on that "stairway to Heaven" who have been turned away because they believe in puke-science and found out Heaven doesn't approve of immorality? Obviously, none are right-wingers because none are carrying guns. They must be liberals being turned away from Heaven. Good picture with much meaning.
ReplyDeleteI don't see the "stairway to Heaven" because each person going up the stairs is older than the last. It signifies time.
DeleteOf course you wouldn't see it. Nobody is expecting you to. That's why this discussion has been between me and Eddie. We're trying to keep it honest, but you may as well post anyway.
DeleteLOL. Funny point about the Guns. Well played. (See: I can recognize good points, even if the speaker doesn't agree with me!)
ReplyDeleteBut you're missing something: The ones in Black & Green carrying BIBLES. (See the Rosary Beads / Cross?) So, yeah, in a way, you're right, they are preaching "puke-science," though I wouldn't have used that exact term in writing. But unless you think LIBERALS are the bible-thumpers, I'm afaid that they are likley Conservatives.
(And DEFINITELEY Conservatives, when contrasted against the Boy in Red who's using a science book.)
I thought the insinuation was Bibles, but I didn't understand what the cords were (no I don't see the cross. I'll look closer when I'm on a better computer). But since they were walking the wrong way I figured they were those turned away at the gate. And saved Christians don't have to worry about that. Only the unsaved ones. Which are you?
DeleteThe boy is using the science book as an umbrella. Perhaps he knows no other way to use that book ... or what it's for? BTW, there are many liberal "Bible thumpers". 'Liberal'/'conservative' doesn't determine between unsaved and saved. In my world, it's moral and immoral that makes that distinction and the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior, who died on the Cross and shed His blood to pay for our sins. ALL sins ... all you have to do is ask.
...And vote Republican, it would seem, from your previous posts.
DeleteCan I be "saved" and still support a Woman's Right to Choose and Equal Rigths for Gay,s I wonder? (How about teaching Evolution exclusively in Science Classrooms and supporting policies to address Global Warming? Waht about taxing the Rich to lower the Deficit? Can I be saved and still vote for all these things?)
Also... Why do I get the feeling that if I were still a Catholic in Good Standing with the Church, as I once was, a long time ago, this would matter naught to you? If I'm right about that, you can spare me there "personal relationship with Jesus" routine. I heard it both online and in person many times. But I collect "Chick Tracts" for amusment and irony, not salvation. I've heard it before, and even were I still a religious man, I would still reject that particular school of theological thought.
But now that you've some of those same buzz-words, you've got me curious... What/How you think/feel about Prosperity Theology?
You're asking ME a lot of questions that you need to ask GOD. But, considering you deny God already, it is doubtful that when He tells you what He wanted, you would ignore Him anyway. So, why would I even attempt to explain anything to you? It's not like you are asking in good faith. You just need some "gotcha" answers so you can whine about religion some more. Good luck with that.
DeleteSee, here I am trying to have a nice conversation, showing genuine inetest in your opinion, and you revert back to being an insufferable prat. William was the same way. If you can't answer any questions at all about your faith, then why did you come here? Why do your witness routine if you can't even TALK about it?! You're dodging again. And that's seriously weak, dude. Its not my fault that it is so easy tofind inconsistencies in religion in general or your faith in particular. If you can't even discuss these basic matters then you make a pretty ineffective witness.Just
Deletesayin.
"See, here I am trying to have a nice conversation," ... you're kidding, right? With that series of questions you're telling me you wanted honest answers? What was it I said in the very post you replied to? "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK". Are you asking ME to be your savior? Or are you interested in how God saves you?
ReplyDeleteI'm interestred in better understanding your opinion, and you as a person by extension. I'm not asking you what I should believe but rather what you do, regarding those questions I posed. Serioisly: What is your belief / opinion on those matters?
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that many of the Levitican laws were aimed at a people who needed guidance at a time of great violence and debauchery. I don't believe the people, at that time, would be considered trying to become "born again Christians", which is what Jesus said we should be to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Being that takes great sacrifice and diligence. But by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ I am given an opportunity to be forgiven for my sins. The laws given during Leviticus were more specific to start a group of people onto the path of righteousness. The path I am to take is a bit different than then.
DeleteWell... That tells me a bit about where you come by your faith, how you see it and the role it plays it in your life. Which is all fine and good, but - all cynicism aside - I could pretty much infer from your posts. But I still remain interested in how you would personally answer the three question I posed above.
Delete1) Do YOU believe that a person holding what YOU SEE as "liberal beliefs" (e.g.: pro-choice (assuming never had or performed an abortion themselves), pro-Gay rights (assuming not Gay themselves), etc...) can "accept Jesus Christ as their savior?" And if you do, do you believe that can still hold those views afterwards? (IOW: Do YOU believe a true Polotical Liberal can still be saved.)
2) Do you recognize any spiritual value, in terms of one's salvatuion, on a person being a Roman Catholic in good standing with the church? (Meaning they regularly attend mass, make use of the sacrement of Reconciliation, take the eucarist, generally try to live by the Church's teaching, and presumably are not a hypocrite.) Do you believe that person can reasonably make the same claim to salvation that you do?
3) What are your thoughts on Prosperity Theology?
There's no "gotcha" here. I just want to know what you think.
If we disagree? Big-whoop. Wouldn't be the first time.Won't be the last, I'm sure. And sure, I have opinions about all these things myself, but it falls more along the lines of something I have a curiosity, rather than a passion, about. So I really don't see getting into a verbal brawl over it.
I just want to know what you think.
1, No. I don't see how someone can be for abortion and yet claim salvation. I'm not making any judgement, here, that's my opinion. It's a little difficult to understand how someone can claim being a born again Christian and at the same time accept and/or promote the murder of viable human beings. How can you be living the life Jesus explains if you are in full acceptance of incorrect morality? (gay rights? ... personally, I have no problem with them getting any and all equality they seek. But .... "rights" I don't know.)
Delete2, You know, the Bible states that few will make it to Heaven (my guess is maybe 10%). If you're asking me if I would pass judgement on someone else, I can't do that. However, I can say that each individual makes their own choices. When you die, you find out how well those choices worked out for you (assuming there is a God and Heaven ... which I do ;) If you read the Bible it states quite clearly that 'going to Church' 'belonging to this/that' ect ... isn't what get's you into Heaven. So based on the limited criteria you offered in your example, the guy would not be guaranteed an entrance through the Pearly Gates, but not necessarily excluded. You need to realize it's not 'doing things' that gets you into Heaven.
But, yeah, they can make the same "claim", that I make about salvation, but I'm not the decider on the legitimacy of either of our claims.
3, I don't know what that is. I'll be glad to look it up for you, if you want, though. LOL
Thank you. While I’m sure we’ll continue to disagree politically, this gives me a much better understanding of you as a person, and your faith, than our previous discussions. (Which I still disagree with you on, BTW.) ;)
DeleteWith regards to your first question… OK fair enough. Just two things… I do not support abortion as a practice, or think of it as a moral act. IMHO, there is never justification for abortion (except to save a life) even in cases of Rape. Now… That’s my MORAL OPINION. On the other hand, when looking at the question legally, I need (1) to find a legal principle (like the sanctity of human life) that can be applied in a consistent manner; (2) Without putting the Gov’t between a doctor and a patient, vis a vis a burden of proof for either a Rape or Health issues; and (3) without taking away a woman’s fundamental right to decide for herself IF she will have children, WHEN and WITH WHOM. I don’t really want to turn this into an abortion debate, and I DO plan on doing another write on abortion pretty soon, but that's just how I see it. MORAL and LEGAL are two different things. (Plus: First Amendment, etc…)
ALSO… what you said about “equality” versus “rights” (for Gays)? They’re the same thing, my friend. (Again, I don’t want to re-open a huge debate here, just fleshing out how I see it.)
The Second Question was just to feel out your anti-Catholic bias. In my experience, most “Born-Again” (also “Fundamentalist,” “Evangelical,” etc…) Christians have a general prejudice against the Catholic Church, and would have said that NO CATHOLIC will enter the Kingdom of God. I like your answer. (Well… I don’t like the ODDS you give! LOL) But I appreciate the consistency of it, regardless of how you may (or may not) judge me personally.
The Third Question… Meh, you don’t need to look it up. It’s a Gospel preached by Pat Robertson (and others) that speaks of God giving you rewards IN THIS LIFE, in the form of material wealth. If I believed in the same Divine (and presumably Diabolical) entities that you do, I would conclude, based on all I have read about it, that "Prosperity" was little more than SATANIC HERESY. It focuses on material wealth in this life, and basically says that whatever you do to attain that wealth MUST be OK, in Gods eyes, otherwise he wouldn’t have let you attain it. (So fraud, theft, etc… All OK, as long as it brings you great wealth.) But even without invoking the Devil, I see it as nothing more than a twisted interpretation of Religion, created by very rich, very evil men, to rationalize the great harms they’ve done in their pursuit of material wealth. (Pat Robertson and his Blood Diamond mine, for example.)
If you had revealed a hatred of Catholics, or embraced the Prosperity Gospel, I could have easily written you off as a simple kook. Instead I now have to actually DEAL with you, as a more complicated kook - an epithet that, coming from me, I’m sure you’ll wear as a badge of honor. LOL
;)